Ep 248 Spiritual Direction in a Homeless Shelter (with Lacy Finn Borgo)

Christina: Hello. It's great to be with you today. We are grateful to have Lacey Finn Borgo on our podcast. Lacey is a spiritual director who has worked with children for many years, and I first heard Lacey speak at a conference with Spiritual Directors International where she talked about. Offering spiritual direction to children who are living in transitional housing, homeless shelter, and I was absolutely captivated by the stories she shared of providing spiritual guidance in a location that quite honestly, never even would've crossed my mind.

Since that time she has trained others in working with children in spiritual formation. She's authored several books and as I've been learning more about her work, and if you engage with her very quickly, you'll realize that she has a very deep love for God. And so we are honored to have her share with us today.

So Lacey, welcome to the podcast. 

Lacy: Oh, it's so good to be with you. Just a joy. 

Christina: So Lacey the idea of sharing spiritual direction with kids in [00:01:00] transitional housing is likely not a concept that many of our listeners have thought about. And so I wonder if you could start off sharing with us what first drew you to share spiritual direction in that capacity?

Lacy: , It began when I lived in Rochester, New York, and I was teaching in inner city, Rochester, New York, and I had some kids of one in particular who I call Christopher in the book Spiritual Conversations with Children When I write about him that . He was struggling to get along with other students.

He was just struggling in every dimension of being a fourth grader. And and he was not allowed to eat with other kids in the lunchroom, so he had to eat with me. It was his punishment and and I thought it was my punishment too. As a matter of fact because, teachers need a little bit of a break and that wasn't gonna happen.

And because of my longing for a break, I just started asking Christopher lots of questions so that he would talk and to [00:02:00] be quiet, honest, so I could ignore him, and he would talk and I could do all the things that I needed to catch up on. But I soon learned in day after day of Christopher and I sharing lunch together that asking him questions that he had a deep, rich in our life.

I started to get curious and because I was teaching in a public school, I was not asking questions about God or religion. I was honoring that boundary. I started asking about goodness and beauty and when did he feel most alive and who did he trust? And that really opened up. I began to hear the echoes of divine love in his life.

So I got curious and few years later we made a cross country move to Colorado and I was serving as I was learning to be a pastoral counselor. And I had some kids who I was learning pastoral counseling to walk [00:03:00] alongside of them, and I thought. Oh. This is like spiritual. This is spiritual accompaniment and they have a rich life engagement with divine love with God.

And and I wonder what it would look like for us to walk alongside of children. So it, it began it began reluctantly on my part, but, the spirit is, seems to always be up to something.

Chris: That's beautiful. Thank you for sharing Lacey. I loved hearing the movement, the humor in it, but also moving towards purpose of what, what already is happening in and the connection. That's just a beautiful story and. I think of, as I told you beforehand, I, I am a substitute school bus driver and, I love talking with kids and interacting with kids.

And I particular story is coming to mind. I had a student on the bus in Wisconsin. Middle [00:04:00] school is fifth grade to eighth grade, and fifth grade is usually just this kind of a transitional year into middle school. But a lot of middle schoolers are, fifth graders aren't ready for, middle school.

And so I remember this one student, and another student was just really picking at him and. I had to pull the bus over and I moved the one student, he was crying and he was angry and just all this, all these emotions that, most fifth graders would be embarrassed Yeah. To do that in a social setting like that.

But and I pulled him to the front kind of. Be behind me just a little bit where I could talk to him. And I remember helping him with some breathing practices. 

Christina: Yeah. 

Chris: And and he calmed down. He. Had this experience where the breathing actually really helped him and his parents were so touched that they ended up giving me a gift card.

It was so meaningful to them. 

Lacy: Oh, yeah. 

Chris: [00:05:00] But I can, he was a student who had a nervous system. That was out of whack. But he had resources. His parents, were so grateful for the experience which he relayed to them that they, they gave me a gift card. I just wonder transitional housing and the, the nervous system and the, all the different things that someone going through. What has that been like accompanying people? 

Lacy: Oh gosh. You give us such a beautiful, rich story, Chris. And you help us to understand how accompaniment, whether it's.

Adult to adult with children can provide that co-regulation where we can help people experience the. Children in this, in your case, a child experienced the peace of God through our presence and their very breath. That's, and it, that's true at Haven House too. When I meet with a child, they come into a room by themselves.

With me, we enter at the same [00:06:00] time so that we share the power together. We have a, I made a canvas door with a plastic window that we hang on a curtain rod. And this is so to honor the privacy of the conversation and to keep the space safe. So we enter that space together, we, and stand on a we.

We sit on a white blanket on the floor together and that togetherness and settling down does provide co-regulation. I can't tell you the number of times. They meet with me when they get off the bus, so they're coming in hot off the bus right after school. I usually have a snack and and we just settle in.

To this little womb really of recognizing where God is present. I, used to teach spiritual conversations with children spiritual direction at the Companioning Center, and I've since passed the baton onto some wonderful people [00:07:00] that I remember the year that we had a nurse. Come who was also bi-vocational spiritual director and a school nurse.

And can you imagine in a school, in a public school, having a nurse who knows how to honor the boundary between religious language. And the public sphere and can help your child regulate. And also notice what is good and beautiful and true in their most vulnerable moments. What a tremendous gift you are, Chris.

Christina: I appreciate the way both of you're naming in your spheres. You as a fourth grade teacher with the bus, and again, honoring those boundaries that you're naming Lacey of, what you're called to do there is to teach math, not to teach religion, but to take those moments. And so I'm curious um, as one thinks about.

Serving in a homeless shelter, how did that come about? How did that curiosity lead to that [00:08:00] particular space and time with those people, and how was that received with whoever runs that? 

Lacy: Sure. Haven House is is run and owned by Christians. And language around God is definitely welcomed and.

Can I say it? For lots of us, we push that language upon others. And I think and we also teach people language. There is a, there's a line between teaching, there is a line between pushing, but when we're talking about spiritual conversations, there is little, there is no room for pushing.

And there is only a thin thread of room for teaching. The rest is accompaniment. So when I'm having a spiritual conversation with a child, really any conversation with a child, 'cause all conversations are spiritual in some way then I'm listening for what language they use for God or they use for the transcendent, or they use for an [00:09:00] experience of the.

Of imminent grace right before them. I'm listening for what language they use and then I use their language, whatever it is. So did I answer your question, Christina? 

Christina: Yeah I think part of why I'm maybe asking the question too is I'm, I meet with several spiritual directors that have a heart to offer spiritual direction in non-conventional places.

And so maybe they have their quote, formal practice that they do that we were trained in our spiritual direction programs. But there is a heart for, and I think this is a very, beautiful, unique space that you're holding for people in transitional housing. And Chris, to your point about some of the dysregulation and just the stressors and some of those basic Maslow's hierarchy of needs 

At the bottom of the tier, and yet recognizing that, I believe that we all in a given day can go up and down the different hierarchy of needs. And also there are seasons and times when certain ones are more pronounced than others too, right? My. Level one may be different than somebody else, but, so I guess I'm curious [00:10:00] around maybe if someone is listening and is curious themselves about what it might mean to offer that, what might be some steps or some ways that they can maybe broach that with maybe whether it be a, an explicit ministry that offers space for folks like this or, not what might that look like? 

Lacy: I think how it happened with me was when Haven House was just opening and there was a pastor offering pastoral counseling. And I said, what about spiritual accompaniment? Because we now have learned that spirituality is a mark of resilience.

It gives resilience both to children and adults and it gives them something someone. To ground to in the fluctuations and storms of life. And so that, that's an entry point, like here is another opportunity for deepening resilience and then particularly with the unhoused population. And again, it's anecdotal, but I have [00:11:00] noticed a deep spiritual longing and lots.

And lots of folks come with their own spiritual framework and so this is a way through which they are making sense of their sorrow and suffering as we all do. And we are merely participating in the framework that's already there. Giving them a place to talk about it. And of course, certainly co-regulation is don't we all need it a friend to listen us, and I'll use the language of Douglas steer into a condition of disclosure and discovery.

Not really guide, but listen us into an unfolding. 

Christina: And I appreciate the dignity that you're naming and the mutuality that you're describing as well in, in the work that you do. 

Lacy: I would say more times than not, I feel like a, and it's such a trite thing to say, I feel like everybody says it, [00:12:00] but I leave Haven House more encouraged than when I got there.

Gosh I hope I did some good, but I received a great deal. 

Chris: Yeah. And as I listened to you, Lacey I think something that emerges for me is one, the theme of hospitality and two what you're actually looking for. I think changes everything. And so I really appreciate the eyes in which you are looking. God is everywhere all the time or whatever language you want to use.

And I love how you have taken opportunities where, I think the. The average person might view it as like maybe hopeless or hard or challenging, like more negative words or negative feelings that we would associate with different situations. But I really appreciate one, the hospitality that you're naming of receiving.

And listening, but also the eyes in which you're viewing, it's really hopeful [00:13:00] and hope filled. Yeah, maybe say more about how you cultivate that in yourself. 

Lacy: Yeah. I think I, I'm following Saint Ignatius, if I could say, and he reminds us in spiritual accompaniment to follow the consolation.

So when a child comes, I'm asking, where are the constellations in your life? And children name things like the teacher that listened to them. When, when they knew they were supposed to be in detention, they name things like their friend that lets them cut in line in the lunch line because they're almost at chicken strips.

They name things like the person that pushes them in the swing on the at, at the. Out on the playground, they name things like the second bounce on the trampoline, not that first bounce. It's that second one that nearly hurls you into the atmosphere. They name that second bounce on they name. A grandmother.

[00:14:00] Grandmothers often are who holds loving space for a lot of us, not only children who don't have housing, but a lot of us grandparents hold that generous, loving space. The, a lot of folks name the education director at Haven House Rose. 'Cause she's always got. Some snacks and a word of encouragement.

I think it's following the consolation. But I also think that it's making room for sorrow. There is sorrow there. So how do we and in. Ma making room for tears. What about those moments that where you felt sad or lost or that you didn't belong or abandoned? And when we are fully present to a child, when they share those hard things without trying to either shut it down.

Or fix it, then we [00:15:00] give them the incredible gift of knowing that when hard things happen, they are not alone. And when we step in, when a child shares something hard or painful and we fix, or we try to shut it down, or let's look on the bright side of life, we tell them we are sending an unintentional message.

It's totally unintentional, but you are alone in your pain. And the consolation that happens in pain is that we are not alone. And if we can listen all the way to the end of what they share and we can stay fully present in them, that then we give them the gift. I say this is made up word of with.

Christina: Lacey, I'm curious because I think, or at least my experience, I'll just speak for my experience. Oftentimes when w. Coming along children in their spiritual formation. It's more in a sort of teacher mentor Sunday school or [00:16:00] synagogue or like something formal. And I really appreciate what you're naming of.

We have our white blanket, we have the snack, and there's a sharing together of the consolation and that back and forthness. And maybe any thoughts you have around how to share those different paradigms with folks that maybe have come from a traditional view of how we might journey with a child with their spiritual formation.

That's not what you're talking about, but, a different model. 

Lacy: Can I ask a question just to be sure I understand? Sure. Are you asking what is the difference between say, spiritual formation and spiritual accompaniment? 

Christina: That's a great way to put it. Yes. 

Lacy: Okay, 

Christina: let's do that. Yes, because, and I think even spiritual formation to some folks even is a, is like I think spiritual accompaniment is what you're beautiful.

And it, if we've gone through training, maybe we understand that spiritual formation may even be newer for folks. And then I think there's like a. Spiritual instruction even, or religious instruction that is maybe a paradigm. So I think I'm even hearing there's three paradigms at work. So however you wanna answer the question would be welcome.

Lacy: Okay. We can have a, we can have [00:17:00] an unfolding conversation. We'll learn something from each other. I really lean into the work of philosopher Dallas Willard around spiritual formation.

And that is that everyone receives a spiritual formation. All of us, we all have spirit and we're being formed. If we are raised within a family that honors a Buddhist tradition, we get a Buddhist spiritual formation. If we are raised within a family that has that honors the Islamic tradition, then we get an Islamic spiritual formation.

If we are raised within a family that, that, that does not engage in any religious framework. Then we get another kind of spiritual formation. Everyone is getting a spiritual formation. Some of it's explicitly taught within families and within churches and synagogues and temples. Some of it are, some of it is picked up within the [00:18:00] culture and, but it is how and who we are becoming.

And sometimes it's pl explicit and sometimes it's caught and taught, right? Spiritual accompaniment has more of an long sider intentional focus where both. The spiritual accomp and the accompany, or the adult and the child both give their focus to the spiritual life. So when I, when the child and I step on this blanket, we are both giving our focus to the child's spiritual life.

We're giving our attention, we're giving our questions, we are giving our wondering, we're giving our, creating to the child's spiritual life and what is already bubbling and flourishing there. Did that. Make a distinction at [00:19:00] all 

Christina: it. Yes. Lovely, lovely answer. Yes. 

Chris: I think one of the things that, that comes up for me, as you say that Lacey I used to be a part of a faith tradition that really the word that you used was intention, like setting intention towards getting to know people and they would say people who aren't connected to maybe a church body.

And so we had this, this practice of praying for your six, setting intention to pray for six people that maybe we would phrase it like this, that to your knowledge are not experiencing anything good from God. 

And so I've since have not used that language, but what it did for me is it helped me focus on someone most people in the church world that's not a part of their practice is looking for people that you come into contact with every day, and you want spiritual goodness to happen in their lives. So whether it's a, isn't that 

Lacy: wonderful. 

Chris: It's the [00:20:00] librarian, it's the gas station attendant.

And whenever I first started this I had a difficult time finding six people, and so it really forced me to look at the world in a completely different way and. So this intentionality, one of the things that we talk a lot about is spiritual direction in everyday life. And some of the things that you're talking about is, you've worked with Haven House, but I also hear that you're open to what we call brief moments of spiritual companionship.

Whether it's at the library or it's at Target and or wherever it is. And so maybe you could say a little bit about how you view these brief moments of spiritual companionship and where maybe it extends outside of that formal setting. 

Lacy: You help us so much with two things. You give us such great thoughts to think about the, you're first about praying for those six people.

It isn't that [00:21:00] the biblical view of blessing. That we are wanting, intentionally think of six people that we could want the ultimate goodness for. Like deep soul connection with divine love. Think of, and then Jesus of course kicks it up a notch and says, now do that for people who curse you.

One of my favorite things that he says because this is it will bring you into your own encounter with divine love if you're praying for people who that you really struggle with and praying all the goodness of the entire universe upon that person. So thank you for that. What a lovely practice for us to carry over many centuries.

The other question that you asked were about these kind of short spiritual accompaniment or spiritual conversations. My friend who is a South African spiritual director and retired pastor Trevor Hudson, he and [00:22:00] I teach a class over. At the Ren at Avari called becoming a Listening presence in everyday Life.

And basically Trevor's trained spiritual directors. He's an Ignatian scholar and we are doing exactly what you're saying, Chris, like, how can we host spiritual conversations? In the checkout line at the grocery store. How do we, and I think you're really helping us know that it begins with blessing, doesn't it?

To like, to be fully present with someone is to will the goodness of the universe of God upon them, and then to listen. Them into a condition of disclosure and discovery. It's if the kid at the who's on your bus who's struggling it's it's the people who live in our home and leave their gum on the kitchen table.

It's being a listening presence to those people too. I [00:23:00] always say, if you have teenagers, it's in the midst of vigorous fellowship that how can we become an accompanying listening presence when me as a parent are so dysregulated or how can we, in my community. Where there's a lot of polarization, how can I first bless and then have a spiritual conversation that might help another be in touch with the goodness of divine love on them?

How I you really connected those beautifully. 

Christina: Lacey, I feel like I could listen to you all afternoon. You're just like, your presence is such a balm. It's just a very soothing, lovely presence. And so I'm imagining that some of our listeners will want to connect with you further. And so where's the best way to learn about some of the works and books that you've written and what you're up to in the world?

Lacy: Sure. You can find me at good Dirt ministries.org. I know I'm a little bit earthy here. That's a great name.

And I also work with Ri you can [00:24:00] find the course that I mentioned in Ari. Yep. 

Christina: Okay, great. And we'll link to those in the show notes. Thank you so much for joining us today. It's been such a delight. 

Lacy: What a wonderful conversation with you both. Thank you. 

Christina: And now is the part of the podcast where we take a moment to talk about what we are into.

So what are we into today? 

Chris: I am into the Suno AI music generating app. So I you could see Lacey behind me. I have a piano, I have a couple guitars on the wall. I've been. A part of guitar circles. I've served on church worship teams doing music, and I'm currently in a season where I don't have any, I, the kids listen to me on the couch playing my guitar.

But I, I don't have an outlet with other folks. And I want one still, but in the meantime. I have this this app called Suno, [00:25:00] and I've plugged in just like a little riff and I think the latest one that I did I call it falling into the Unknown, and it's just a, it's a little tune and inspired by some of my reflections on the cloud of unknowing.

And I wrote just this little tune and then. I plugged it into Suno and I gave I, I asked for, Hey, can you give me a Spanish flamenco? Guitar feel for this song, and it gave me just this wonderful, like lots of guitar body slaps and, the fingers going across the, the strings in a very flamenco rhythmic way.

And then I asked it to create a western where the stale the pedal steel is. In the background and a violin. And so it's just been a lot of fun to, to create to, offer something into [00:26:00] the world and then have somebody offer something back, even if it's ai. My preference would be for interaction with human beings.

But this is meeting a need for me. So Suno, ai, music creating software is what I've been into. 

Christina: Yes, it has been fun. Our 15-year-old actually introduced you to that software and it's been a crazy ride hearing what Daddy comes up with in the evening. So anyway I am into river dance. They just had their 30th anniversary thing that they're touring with, and so Chris and I went to Milwaukee this weekend and saw them and it was so fun and so impressive.

And I remember back in the day when they first came out, I had a friend that was really into river dancing. Watch them on video at the time, but Oh, it was just delightful. And I'm really into the Irish tunes and they do a beautiful thing now with multimedia and the video and nature. And so anyway, I am very much into river dance.

Lacy: Oh, that is so cool. That is so cool. I'm into watercolor painting. I spend a lot of time listening to people's words. And I spend, I, I [00:27:00] have a new book that will be out in 2027, and so I've got a lot of words that I use as well. And what I love about watercolor paints. Is that they're messy.

They seem to me impossible to get exact. Like you work real hard to get words exact and there are no words involved. And so in the evening, I just make a horrible mess in my living room. And my spouse of 30 plus years is wow, we just have a whole art studio here. I'm like, yep, we do.

So I'm working on a circle series and I'm about six little paintings in. They would make sense to no one but me, but I'm just loving the watercolor paints. 

Christina: That sounds super fun. Yay. Thanks so much for joining us and until next time, make it a great week. 

Lacy: It was wonderful to be with you both so much.

Thank you. 

Christina: Thank you.