Spiritual Conversations with Children (with Terra McDaniel)

Christina: Hello. It is great to be with you. Well, It turns out when you write a book that all of a sudden you get introduced to cool people. And today we are interviewing one of those cool people. With us is Terra McDaniel. She's a spiritual director who offers spiritual direction to children. Also leads a training that equips others to accompany children on their spiritual journeys.

As we were chatting a little bit beforehand, it turns out that Terra and Chris are both from Texas and so we've been geeking out on Texas geography and fun memories. And so we are excited to learn from her today. She's delightful presence. Tara, welcome to the podcast. 

Terra: Oh, I'm so glad to be here. 

Christina: Terra, I wonder if we can start with you sharing what first drew you to offer spiritual direction to children?

Terra: Yeah. It, initially it was, I was beginning to offer direction with adults and I and I read about the training and I thought, this will [00:01:00] help me deepen the presence that I offer with adults. That was my primary initial goal. And it has and it did, and still does, and it opened up.

The training and the conversations and the readings that we were doing opened up just this new world for me that it is so delightful, is so beautiful and inspiring. It is a way of. Honoring children's spiritual lives in, in, in a way that I haven't seen in any other context. And it honors the soul of the child and their agency and their, the Imago day in them, the image of God the divine spark that's in every person, including children. And so that, that's how it began for me, and it's just continued to grow and I just am delighted to get to be a part of this work. 

Chris: That's lovely. I [00:02:00] wonder if you could tell us what are some major, noticings that you have between maybe children and adults and maybe how you would approach accompaniment or listening to children or maybe there's some, a lot of crossover, but what is your approach to what are some of the differences that you notice? 

Terra: Oh yeah. Great question. So the differences are that children have childlike language.

Of course they do. And it is stepping back from a posture that says because they don't have adult language for their spiritual life, that they don't have a spiritual life. And so it is recognizing that the language of children is. Play that children do have capacity to to be slow and still and contemplative and actually hunger for it, but they have less capacity than adults do.

So sessions, for example, times of listening will be shorter. The [00:03:00] tools that we use, there's a lot. There can be a lot of tactile tools with children more than you might have. With adults. Though of course as we know, adults also enjoy, holding stones singing bowls, things like that to help them engage.

Even drawing practices can be really meaningful for adults as well. But with children, it is the idea that we don't have to create. A connection with God. Our role is to bear witness to it when we're in a holy listening space or a spiritual accompaniment space, or a spiritual conversation space.

Those are, some of the various terms that we use to distinguish this kind of listening with children we're but our role is to sit with them. Elbow to elbow and help them recognize and respond to the movement of the divine, because that helps them lay a neural network of the, this meaningful experience that they, that's already [00:04:00] happening.

We just help them surface it and articulate it. Yeah. 

Christina: Terra, that's lovely. I appreciate some of the language you're using around agency and coming alongside. And you mentioned a moment ago some of these different terminologies that you use. Could you unpack some of those words for us? Because I think many of us, who maybe have come from a spiritual background as a child, either maybe we had none, or if we did, oftentimes it's in a traditional like.

I go to Hebrew school or I attend a Sunday school and maybe have more of a rigid picture of what that sort of spiritual education or formation is. And so I'd love to maybe hear you unpack some of the terminology that you use. 

Terra: Absolutely. Yeah. And I'll say that's the context that I grew up in.

I was very much, a, for me it was a Sunday school kid with my mom's side of the family, or, kind of Southern Baptist with my dad's side of the family. It was Methodist. But the idea was you show up, you eng engage the teacher. Teaches the lesson, you memorize the verses, you learn the right answer, to the questions [00:05:00] and there you are.

You have a spiritual life. And I also recall, moments of, conversations I would have. With grandparents times in nature that are more akin to how I experience connection with God as an adult. And looking back, I can notice that those were all present there too. So all that to say the difference is, in Sunday school and Hebrew school and other kind of church-based vacation Bible school, those kinds of spaces. The idea is that the child is a vessel and we need to get this information about spiritual things and godly things into their minds. And if we can, if that happens, we've had success, right?

They, if they can tell the story then we're in good shape. The, holy listening, spiritual accompaniments, spiritual conversations doesn't say that training and teaching is bad. It's necessary, it's helpful. It's not a bad thing, but there's this [00:06:00] other way of being with children, and the difference in between the two is with holy listening, we are not coming to teach.

We're coming with we're coming to honor the child with our presence. So we have, as adults, we have power with children, and children have been trained to look to us, to guide them, to protect them, et cetera. And all again, all well and good. And there, there's a shift in posture with holy listening.

Where we get down, we physically get down at the level of the child. So we'll, we might lay out a blanket, we might take off our shoes and sit down together, elbow to elbow. And and we might say something like, I'm not here to teach you today. I'm not here to tell you what you should do. I'm here to listen to whatever you wanna talk about.

And there the trust is that the [00:07:00] whole life of the child, they haven't split it up into, things of God and things of the rest of their life. It's all welcome. God's presence. That's true for us as adults as well. But kids know it in this embodied way. And so it's trusting that what they wanna talk about that is their life.

That is their soul, that is their life with God. And so to listen with them and then perhaps to offer a chance to respond. You told a story about about a hard day at school. Do you wanna draw a picture about that? You told a story about seeing a hummingbird in your backyard. Do you want to sculpt a prayer around that?

Things like that. 

Chris: Well, That's lovely, and I think as I, I I hear you explaining maybe some of the ways that you're with children. I think I too grew up in a similar way and I remember loving some of the memorization 'cause they turned it in, into games for competition and [00:08:00] sure that was fun.

But I also remember thumbs up, seven up as a part of the. As a part of the learning process or DuckDuckGo. But I think as I'm hearing you, it's I was talking with someone not too long ago and he comes from, a Muslim faith tradition. And he was talking about his sort of learning and it was more the memorization, right?

Terra: Yes. 

Chris: Getting the facts. And what I hear you describing is what, how I would term it is you're engaging the left brain. The right brain. 

Terra: Yes. 

Chris: And I think a lot of times spirituality can look really skewed to the left brain. And so one of my favorite verses probably 'cause I'm pretty, I consider myself to be childlike, other people would say, Hey, you need to grow up. But I consider myself to be childlike. And when Jesus said, unless you become like one of these. Yeah. If you're, whatever faith tradition you come from, I think that's a very powerful statement. Unless you [00:09:00] come become like a child you can't experience goodness from the kingdom of heaven, and so you lift up play.

And so maybe you could say a little bit more about how play what that looks like in a session with children. 

Terra: I'll, yes. Again, play is the language of children and if we as adults can shift our posture to welcome it as valid as the work of children. And as you say it, it might, it would serve many of us to learn how to play again as adults as well.

There's something really trustworthy about play. I'll tell you about doing some listening with my grandchildren. They're twins. They're three and a half. And we have been doing what they call listening time since they were around two years old. Whenever they want to do it, like I'll bring the tools out and sometimes they, they are ready and sometimes they're not.

And I honor that, right? But it looks like laying [00:10:00] out the blankets, getting getting out the altar. And they get to turn on the battery powered candle. And it's very important that they each get a chance to turn it on. And we say, the light reminds us that God's love is always with us.

And at the end, even if we don't see it, God's love is always with us and they get to draw their stories, they get to shake their tambourine. Let's see if I can put my hands on them quickly. So they make music to tell their stories. Maybe you could hear that, maybe not. They might use the finger labrinth.

And there again it's quiet, but it's playful as well, right? They trace their way in. They might sculpt something that tells a story of what of what they are. Celebrating in that moment. They might set up pictures. They might they might play with a peace doll. They might use [00:11:00] beads.

So many options. One that I haven't done with them yet. So I'll step out of that sort of experience is blowing prayers with bubbles. It can be so lovely 'cause it's a way for the child to. Spray without words, which can really serve. And it's this beautiful, playful thing as the bubbles float around and it can become, where are they gonna land?

Do we get to pop them, et cetera. So in all, in that, in so many other ways it's inviting playful actions and a playful posture and acknowledging that as spiritual.

Christina: So fun to hear all the creative ways. It reminds me back in the day when I was studying theology and we had, one of our instructors was from Brazil and he would do all like creative corporate intercession is what he called it. And we would to your point, we would like. Pick sticks out of a centerpiece to pray for something and just little things that really made Pergo from boring, no offense, to a fun thing that you look [00:12:00] forward to, which I really appreciate.

Yes, Tara I'm wondering, 'cause I think a lot of our listeners are gonna be inspired as they're hearing this, whether it's like in your home with, children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, cousins, et cetera. But also I'm curious like in do you offer this virtually to children or in groups?

Like how else are you engaging children in the practice of spiritual care and spiritual companionship? 

Terra: Yeah. It, in the past I've done kind of different things and, our teaching team and the folks we've trained over the years have engaged this kind of one with one listening with children.

In person on, front porches and in living rooms with, parents just out of earshot, but nearby if needed. It can ha it has happened online. I've been amazed and probably shouldn't have been because of course, children are digital natives in ways that we you know, can't fathom.

But, just as, spiritual direction for adults can [00:13:00] happen virtually, it can with children. And I've found over the years sometimes there can be really creative ways. For example, I've had children who found the chat function really helpful. Some older children they were able to type things that maybe felt a little too vulnerable to say out loud.

And it let them slow down. They could show me their spaces show me a favorite stuffed animal or, the tools that they had gathered, to be with our time together as well. We've had folks who work in group homes with children. We've had school counselors.

School nurses meetings with groups of children. So it really can look in all so many ways. And I wanna emphasize here, talking a lot about tools and they're useful and helpful and a posture of listening, of curious questions. What do you wanna tell me about your day?[00:14:00] 

What's something special? What's a creature of a person who's special to you? What do you love? What made you sad this week? So those don't require anything but a loving, safe listening presence, right? Yeah.

Chris: Yeah. Absolutely. And I love that you brought up some ways talking about prayer. And, I love the image that comes to me as I think about people blowing bubbles is prayer. In fact, we have a neighbor down the road. As soon as it's springtime, she gets out. She has this huge bubble wand, and she stands out in the street, and sure enough, our kids mosey on out to talk to Katie.

Like it's just a fun it's just a fun thing. But yeah, I think in the spiritual. Companioning world, we would talk about things like apha, prayer, prayer without words, and yes. Maybe say more about how you engage children in types of prayer that maybe are not [00:15:00] using words or tradition, traditional prayers.

Terra: Yes. Yeah. This is such a wonderful thing to, to help children engage and learn from an early age to, to know that there are all kinds of ways of talking with God and that are valid and welcome and that God talks back. If we stop to listen and that they, they can learn to hear what the still small voice sounds like to them.

And it can simply be, stillness and an invitation. You've told this story. Do you wanna stop and take three breaths? And see if love says anything back to you about these things. It can be as simple as that. It can be. I mentioned the finger labyrinth before. I have a number of versions of these.

I love this one made by my friend Kaisa Steinberg Lee, who is also part of [00:16:00] the. Teaching and mentor team in our course. It's a beanbag and it's just lovely and my grandchildren love to use this and it's, and you would think a two or 3-year-old using a finger lab. No, but they do and they know to trace in and I just, and I remind them, you get to talk to God on your way in, in the middle.

Take three breaths, one for the father. One for the sun, one for the spirit. And then listen, what does God say as you trace your way back out? Other things can be drawing prayers using Play-Doh to sculpt them using prayer beads. As you move the beads toward the center, you're saying what you need to say to the holy as you move them back out.

You're listening. So those are just a few ways to pray without words. 

Christina: Lovely Terra, I'm wondering we're talking about younger [00:17:00] children. What age span are you typically engaging in this? And also I'll start with that and then I'll ask another question. Go ahead.

Terra: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah so the sort of. The primary focus is around three or four to, to around pre-adolescent, so 11 or 12. Just in terms of brain development the thrust of the training that we do hits that age and what we know is that there's a shift in the ability of a child to, to recognize spiritual things and a connection with God. That in a more articulate way around three or four years old. And as we know, adolescents, is the great rewiring of the brain. And so there's so much that's happening there. So that's the.

Primary age range that we focus on. That said, in recent years, we're hearing more and more work around that, that adolescent space. And so that's a [00:18:00] growing edge that we're seeing in this work as well. Yeah. 

Christina: I love that's so important. Yeah. And then my other question is, it's interesting, I and I think most of our listeners know, but I wrote a children's contemplative activity book called My Spiritual Journey.

And I was at a monastery after, yeah, . Thank you. And selling some copies. And I can't tell you the number of grandparents or aunties and uncles who came up to me and said, their own children aren't practicing faith. And so they felt a hesitation to bring up spiritual conversations with their grandkids or their great nieces and nephews, although that's a big desire.

And as they were flipping through, they're like, maybe this could be an avenue because it's not like blatant in your face or whatever. So I'm curious if you have come alongside others in that situation and what wisdom and hope and encouragement you would offer them. 

Terra: Yeah. Yeah. I would just, I would say that that what distinguishes this, these spiritual conversations or who listening [00:19:00] from what might happen at a church or a place of worship is.

It's a very open-handed posture. It's a very curious posture. It's not about trying to convince a child of anything. It's about coming alongside the spiritual life that, that we trust is already there. And having those conversations. And I think that, that is something that grandparents and aunties and, it's even, kids you might, encounter in the grocery store line.

You know that those kinds of questions can be welcome and safe and non, not invasive in a, in the sense of parents having concerns about, there being some sort of goal to, to usurp their perspective or something like that. But again, if we trust that kids have a connection to their own souls and.

The spiritual life as all humans do. It also can drain some anxiety around, [00:20:00] oh wait, they're not being trained in the way that I was or in the way that I wish that they were. But is there something trustworthy? And as a bigger world, a bigger time view at hand and to enter into that with the children in their lives.

Christina: And I would imagine too, just even listening to you describe, even your own upbringing and then what you're offering your grandchildren, as we learn more and grow more, it's different. And so I could even imagine some healing conversations around maybe a parent who was raised a certain way and doesn't want their children necessarily to have a rigid.

Spiritual education or religious upbringing. But then hearing like maybe, someone that they're encountering has such a different approach, I could imagine that could be healing. 'cause what you're describing is so invitational and welcoming and the agency and all that we've been naming today.

So I would imagine that would be part of the conversations as well. Yeah, 

Terra: absolutely. Yeah. A key thing in the, in this work is honoring the agency of the child and the freedom of the child. Yeah. [00:21:00] 

Chris: That's lovely. And this is a place of curiosity for me around the work that you do, Terra, and

you might not engage this way, but as going back to the thing that you said, Christina, about grandparents having children that are disconnected from a faith tradition, I st I think everyone is spiritual no matter what. And people can engage in communication with God, divine source, higher power.

Without a faith tradition, but there, there is a disconnect with a lot of people. And I think a lot of times I've run into people that have issues with the building itself. Something that looks, like the upbringing in which they found themselves leading from a church building with a steeple.

And so I imagine that outdoor space. The natural world would be a wonderful place to engage in these types of activities. So [00:22:00] I'm curious, what's your experience with children in outdoor spirituality? Or, I know a famous term right now is the church in the wild, or spirituality in the wild, but maybe you could say a little bit about that.

Terra: Oh, absolutely. And here's where, shout out to children's book authors who create these wonderful invitations and illustrations that, that, are just a pathway. So I'll mention a few that come to mind. There's a book called Noticing. There is, there's one called Tiny Perfect Things. There's another Wonder Walkers.

And we, with my grandchildren, we practice this, we have a little basket and we'll go on a walk in the neighborhood and we'll look for tiny, perfect things. We'll look for little flowers, we'll look for feathers. We will, notice what there is to see. And and it becomes this sacramental thing.

I know another of our in of our [00:23:00] teaching team, Ellie Beatty, will often meet in the backyard of children that she hosts. And there, the natural world is there at their fingertips all the time. So as birds, fly by, they can look at the sky and the clouds and the trees and all of these aspects of the natural world, which.

Evoke as they do in us wonder and awe and a sense of, of the beauty of the created world, which connects us to creator, which connects us to source. I know others who have practiced this work will often walk in the park with a child. So it'll be a very kind of pathetic, experience.

And so it's absolutely the natural world is just ripe for this kind of listening. 

Christina: Terra, I appreciate all the books that you mentioned, and we'll be sure to link those in our show notes. And, again, I'm wondering, as people are interested in what the work that you do, just listening to you today, I know that there's gonna be interest.

Where can people follow along and [00:24:00] maybe tell us a little bit about the work that you do specifically? 

Terra: Absolutely. So one place to find my work is simply my website and it's terramcdaniel.com. So folks can find and connect with me there. And then the training that we do is through a lovely organization called the Companioning Center.

And we have opened up applications for our fall cohort. It's a 12 week program that's so rich. And so they can find that through the Companioning Center website and learn more about the course and the possibilities there. And then for those who are, love what they're hearing and might wanna support this work.

We have a fund where they can donate to the, to sustainability and scholarships for students as well. So I can share that. And that's through give Butter. We have a give butter account. And I'll happily share all of those resources. Yeah. 

Christina: Thank you so much Terra. This has been a delightful conversation and I know it's gonna [00:25:00] encourage and spark creative ideas and our listeners, so thank you so much for joining us.

Terra: Oh, it was my pleasure. I so enjoyed talking with you both.

Christina: And now is the part of the podcast where we take a moment to talk about what we are into. So what are we into?

Chris: I am into a better night's sleep. I recently got a new mattress, I have gotten a Casper mattress. It's a 10 inch mattress. 11 inch mattress. My other mattress was only eight inch and I was struggling with some back and shoulder issues 'cause I sleep on my side and so I was hoping that this mattress would help.

Me get a better night's sleep and sure enough, I've been sleeping. I still have a little back problems, but I think once me and my chiropractor get my back issues straightened out, [00:26:00] I think I'm gonna sleep lovely. But I'm into a better night's sleep and I'm very thankful for my my new Casper mattress, which is helping me helping me to do that.

Christina: Yes, we should be ambassadors for Casper There. I highly recommend Yes, you check that out. I am into, I'm re into this, but it's a little series on Hallmark called When Calls the Heart, and it's about kind of a frontier family or community in Canada. And we've watched it with our older two and then our younger son, he was not into it, whatever.

And then he was into more recent episodes just because we do family watch night. And so now he wants to go back and rewatch from season one. They're on season 13. But it's so fun 'cause he's at such a cute, he's 10. And poor kid is just growing up on all these hallmark things from his older two sisters.

But it's been really delightful. So I'm very much into When Calls the Heart. 

Terra: Oh, I love it. My parents watched that show. I watched an episode with them not too long ago and it was so sweet. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. I am into [00:27:00] climbing trees again. I have a huge fig tree in my backyard and just, I don't know why I never thought to climb it before, but I didn't.

And the thought popped in my head and I've been climbing that sweet tree. Almost daily, just getting up there, remembering how to like maneuver, re, all those sort of long lost skills that I had as a kid and it has been so fun. 

Christina: That sounds fun. I would, 

Terra: it has been delightful. 

Christina: I think we've all had a treat.

I can think of my childhood tree as well that I used to climb. Yes. That's a real thing. Yes, 

Terra: absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. 

Christina: Thank you so much for joining us and until next time, make it a great week.