Ep 263 Acedia: From Pixar to Monks

Tina: Hello. It's great to be with you. Today, we are talking about acedia. And I would say that I probably first came across this idea when I watched Inside Out 2 with my family several years ago. There was a new character, Ennui, who represented this teenage boredom or apathy. And I had never heard of the term before, but was fascinated by the characterization, and so I did a little deep dive.

And from there, I discovered this other word, acedia, which is considered more of a spiritual or soulful lack of care, rather than in Inside Out 2, it was the teenager keeping their distance from looking too cool to care. We joke about being too cool for school, and that was the movie, where acedia is more of a crisis of meaning or purpose or spiritual connection.

And interestingly enough, as I was researching this term, I discovered that fourth-century desert monks also had a word for [00:01:00] this thing that would strike. They called it the noonday demon, because it frequently struck midday when heat and exhaustion made spiritual disciplines feel unbearable. And so the noonday demon used to make the monks stare out the window, wishing for a visitor to distract them.

And when you read some of these ancient texts, you hear them describing a spiritual indifference. They would view prayer or worship or moral duties as tedious and heavy or meaningless burdens. And they, too, experienced a restlessness or an inability to stay focused or present, characterized by an, an anxious need to escape silence, escape their routine or their inner stillness by distracting themselves.

And I thought, wow, that's so fascinating that monks in the fourth century... I don't know, I wouldn't picture them facing distractions like we do today. And obviously, our acedia shows up a little bit differently. But yeah, the, just the fact that as human beings, we struggle with crisis of [00:02:00] meaning and purpose or spiritual connection that's very real today and, very real centuries ago.

And while I don't necessarily stare out my window hoping for a visitor in the afternoons, I grab my phone or other distractions when I personally want to escape the discomfort of my own thoughts or the restlessness I feel. And that's a little bit of my backstory of coming into this term of acedia.

Chris: Wow, that is so interesting that these tendencies existed centuries ago, and even had a name like the Noonday Demon. Which makes sense in their culture and context, thinking of something that has a physical manifestation in the world , that means us harm or, it takes a hold of us.

And I think, to build on this idea of acedia, it is different than, let's say, clinical depression, and it's a little different than regular apathy. And I've heard the term existential apathy used, and it's this kind of I don't really care anymore [00:03:00] that goes deeper than ordinary boredom or, let's say, a lack of motivation.

It describes a state in which someone feels disconnected from meaning or purpose, significance, or just investment in life itself. And I think these things may still be happening around them, but they don't feel especially compelling or worth engaging in. Just simple distraction. And so I think, one, boredom.

There's nothing interesting to do. Number two, burnout. I'm exhausted and don't have anything left to give. Three, depression. I feel persistently low, hopeless, or unable to experience pleasure. And then existential apathy. I'm not sure if any of this really matters, and I don't feel much reason to [00:04:00] care 

Tina: Yeah, and I think that's helpful distinction in showing the nuance because I've certainly felt variation of these things before, right?

I think oftentimes we talk about boredom and especially like parents of kids and if our kids are bored and trying to help them to think of things to do besides just, going to their screens or something like that. And I know when we were kids, we would go outside and play all the time, and that was something that was cultivated where burnout of feeling exhausted and not really having anything left to give.

I think I've really paired that with acedia of thinking, "Okay, I'm just... I don't care because I'm tired." But I think that there's, again, something a little bit deeper that you're describing here, Chris, where it's like I could do this, but why bother? And nothing's really wrong per se. I just don't feel invested in whatever it is, and maybe I have things that I should care about that are really important that maybe align with my values or what matters to me in this world, but I don't necessarily engage and maybe think, "Okay, what difference does this make?"

Like maybe there's something, a goal that I'm working [00:05:00] towards or particular relationships that I'm cultivating or again values, and I think it's easy to slip into this acedia of does it really matter and what difference does it make? And I think it's important to note that this isn't necessarily someone just sitting around doing nothing because I think a person can be high functional.

Maybe we're volunteering, working, accomplishing things but internally we feel detached from the question of why we're doing any of it. And I think that it's not necessarily... modern acedia at least isn't characterized by doing nothing. I think it's the opposite where there's this frantic meaningless busyness and perhaps we fill our calendars and we work long hours, and yet we feel very disconnected from the value or purpose of what we're doing.

And I think maybe we've heard the term existential crisis which is where what does life mean? What am I supposed to do? Where I think this is more of an apathy where it's like I don't even care to figure out. Like it just feels like too much effort to figure out what my life means, and so [00:06:00] I'm just gonna kinda do nothing sort of a thing.

So I don't know. That's what comes to my mind as I'm thinking of what you're sharing, Chris.

Chris: Yeah, and I think it's, super helpful to see both the ancient and modern ways that this shows up. Going back to the monks and some of their wisdom, we read that, they took acedia seriously. It wasn't anything to joke about, because it thrived on escape and distraction, and their remedies focused on stability and confrontation.

I think overcoming acedia required bringing, bringing it to the light. And I love that ph- phrase, bringing it to the light. They... And they had four common practices to help them, and the first practice is the principle of stability. Monks were strictly forbidden from fleeing their cells when acedia or the Noonday Demon would strike.

They believe that, [00:07:00] physically staying put forced them to confront their inner restlessness rather than running away from it. 

Tina: Yeah I like this, 'cause I've heard a lot about stability with, Benedictine spirituality and Saint Benedict, and that's one of the, the core pillars of his writings.

But never really thinking about it in this context. And obviously like, I don't live in a cell and I'm not tempted to, to do that. But I do think there's something to be said about sitting with the discomfort of restlessness and allowing making myself to stay put in that.

Even going back to as a child, if I was bored, it was like, "Go find something to do. Go play. Don't don't just sit around and complain about being bored." But confronting that inner restlessness and being with it and playing our way out of it, right? We would do that with our kids when they were little, help them to play their way out of it.

And so I think that stability, that's an interesting take on stability. 

Chris: Yeah, for sure. I think, the second practice that they would engage in is the practice of manual labor. Engaging in physical repetitive work weaving a basket or gardening, was used to [00:08:00] anchor the mind in the present moment and break the cycle of mental paralysis.

And I particularly like that, the practice of manual labor, because sometimes when I... I I can be distracted. I can be all over the place doing this and that. But whenever I have something that I'm doing that is, stable, it's it's just doing one thing, it helps focus me.

So I really like the practice of manual labor. 

Tina: Yeah, I agree with you, and I think for me, cooking's a big grounding practice that I do, where I'm engaging in this physical work. And I've shared on the podcast before chopping and stirring, there's something about that brings me to the present moment.

And I don't know, I, the, And I haven't watched it yet, but there is a book and a documentary by Michael Pollan about, I think it's called Cooked, and he's talking about ways that food and how humans have related to food has evolved over the years, and the act of cooking and preparing food and what that does to, society and the human evolution.

But I think there's something about that for me [00:09:00] personally, that, that practice of manual labor. And I like that too about the ancient monks and again, going back to St. Benedict, they had a prayer and work were the twofold Ora Labora. And so they didn't just sit around and pray all day, and weren't just in their minds, but actually doing something with their hands that felt very important.

And so I think that's a great practice that they had. 

Chris: Yeah, and then the third way out of it would be tears and lamentation. Monks viewed crying not as a sign of defeat, but as a healthy sort of emotional release that softened anything that was hardened, apathetic heart, and reawaken the soul's capacity to care.

So I think tears and lamentation were very important. 

Tina: Yeah, and this is something probably as I've gotten older that I've leaned into a little bit more of allowing myself... 'Cause I think again, for me and again con- contrasting it with Inside Out Ennui, I think is how you say the character.

She was too cool for school type of a thing. But I think the disconnect for me, sometimes there's a lot of [00:10:00] difficult emotions, which is why I wanna disconnect, and it's like just an exasperation around things. And I think sometimes just whether it is actually crying or just allowing myself the lamenting prayers of "I'm grieving this," or, "This is hard," or releasing somehow, it, I think it does soften a hardened heart, and allowing those prayers of lament, I think...

I was surprised when we first went to seminary and discovering that most of the psalms in the Bible are lamenting psalms, that there's, a majority are of lament. And there's something about that ancient Jewish culture that really gave space for that. And yeah. And so I think whether it's big things in our lives that we're lamenting or crying or even small things where we just need that breakthrough and somehow it recenters us, so I think that's a great practice.

And then the, the fourth practice that these monks would do would be short, focused prayers. And so again, when lengthy meditations became just out of reach because of a wandering mind, they relied on brief, repeated phrases like, "God, come to my assistance," or "Lord, have mercy" [00:11:00] or kind of these simple prayers to bring them back to focus in ways that were attainable for them and reachable in the state that they were in.

Chris: I like that one as well, the short - focus prayers. And I think, I've used, "Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God, have mercy on me." Or I've used, "The Lord is my shepherd." Y- just these small phrases. And I think it just makes all that overwhelmingness or the distanceness come a lot more near and gives me a focal point to, to look at.

So I really like that one as well. 

Tina: Yeah. And I think too for me, just even "God, help me to care," is a prayer that I pray sometimes where it's like, I don't wanna care sometimes, and sometimes it's like, "Ugh I'm sick of caring, and I wish I didn't care, but I do care," or, "God, help me to care," and I don't want my heart to get hardened in certain sit- situations.

And so again, I think that restlessness that we feel, and Chris, to your point earlier of letting the acedia come to the light, that's the first step of recognizing, "Okay, this is here." And again, monks that devoted their lives to [00:12:00] spirituality, they dealt with it too, and I think that, I don't know, there's something comforting about that I think for me because I think so many times in our modern culture and world, we can get so caught up in all the things that we're facing, and the pressure, and the anxiety, and all of that.

But recognizing that, gosh, this is nothing new. It looks a little bit different, but it's nothing new. And the other day I was out for a walk and decided to put my phone away for a portion of it. And as soon as I did, there were I think three or four deer that were present with me on the path, and a a little fawn.

And it was just breathtaking, and it was so centering, and so grounding, and beautiful. And I totally would have missed it if I was on my phone. And I don't know, there's something about that, that simplicity for me too. And so I know that, this wasn't listed in your practices, Chris, but I think for me too being back in, in anything that involves my senses, again, you mentioned the manual labor but being in a physical presence of trees, and forest, and woods, and animals, and things like that I [00:13:00] also find very helpful in getting me grounded and out of that acedia any final thoughts that you have on this topic?

Chris: No, I like that. I like the, the practice. And, a, a lot of times I lead retreats and, I'm leading a retreat here in the future, and I think taking a group of people outside and then asking them to tap into their senses, and what does your mind gravitate towards?

And, d- for different people it's different things. But, some people it might be touching the tree. It might be the actual physical touch of touching a tree. For some people, it might be what they hear. Hearing a, a brook or a river or a bird song. Some people it might be a vista that they're viewing.

yeah, the senses really ... Especially when we have an openness to presence in the physical moment. So yeah, I appreciate you saying that as well, and I- Yeah ... I find that to be h- helpful. 

Tina: Yeah. Helps get us out of the funk. Hopefully this has been helpful for you as you think [00:14:00] about acedia and maybe how it sneaks up in your life, and gaining some wisdom from the ancient forest-sensory monks.

So thanks for an engaging conversation. And now is the part of the podcast where we take a moment to talk about what we are into. So what are we into? 

Chris: I'll be into something that's a little light and fun-hearted. We are in the process of, getting our garage cleaned so we can put two vehicles in the garage at one time instead of the one, putting the bikes away

And I found a party gift that someone gave to me over the summer, and I forgot that they, they gave me this h- sort of helium canister with balloons. And I completely forgot about it, but I'm into blowing up helium balloons and just being silly with, after you blow them up, taking in a little of the helium and talking funny.

So me and my [00:15:00] son are going to be doing some helium balloons and doing our most goofy voices. So that's what I'm into, just something fun and silly, light, but yet memorable. 

Tina: I'm sure it will be, yes. So I am into square dancing. So I don't know if we've shared on the podcast, but our... Chris and I, and it ended up our 10-year-old is also joining us for square dancing lessons with some friends, and it has been so fun.

I, as a kid, did square dancing in elementary school. We had units every year in PE class, and can't say I loved it when I was a kid, but saw in the local paper that they were doing some square dancing, and there's a club, near us. And so we thought why not?" There was these two free lessons, and so we dragged our friends along, and we all had a great time, very nice people.

And so we decided to sign up for the lessons. And I guess once you complete 50 calls, I believe it is, you can go to these mainstream square dances that happen on random Friday nights and throughout the state, and it's kind of this whole [00:16:00] culture that I didn't realize. But so anyway, we're about halfway through our lessons, and we know a lot of moves, and I'm proud of ourselves.

I always would watch those movies where the community would have dances that they knew, the waltz dances or things like that, and always a- appealed to me. "Oh, I wonder how they did the lessons and what that looked like." And so it's fun that we now are on our way to becoming square dancers.

So that's very much what I'm into. 

Chris: Never what I've imagined. 

Tina: It is true, yes. Thanks so much for joining us, and until next time, make it a great week.